Detained

[00:00:00] Josh: And suddenly we find, I find myself, in a, in a, basically a holding cell, in the bottom of a police station, just wondering, is, is like, is this it? Like, I, I don't even know what, what to do next. And it was quite, it was a jarring experience, as you can imagine.

[00:00:18] Matt: This is the Relentless Pursuit Podcast, where we hear stories from cross cultural workers on what it's really like to be a missionary, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:00:26] Jess: Welcome back to season four of the Relentless Pursuit podcast. We are so excited to be back on the air with you guys to share some amazing stories of what the Lord is doing all over the world, and how he is using his people. So Matt, give us a little bit of a teaser of what we've got coming this coming season.

[00:00:44] Matt: Yeah, here's what we can expect. We're going to talk about the topic of missions and disability. Does disability prevent you from being effective as a missionary on the field, or if there's someone in your family that has disability? We're going to talk about church planting what that looks like in a country like Iceland, which we don't necessarily automatically think of as being a country that has unreached people in it.

[00:01:05] And then cycling and the gospel, what does it look like to take your passion for cycling into communities that are unreached? And can God use your passion for that to make you effective among the unreached? We're going to talk about business development. I mean, there's just so many different topics that we want to cover in this season of Relentless Pursuit. So we're so excited you joined us and we're, we're looking forward to episodes ahead.

[00:01:30] Jess: If you've ever considered going overseas as a missionary, you've probably also wondered what happens if the worst happens. If I get interrogated, if I get Detained and imprisoned and I'm under the scope and they're asking me about my work and my ministry and, you know, they're asking me to name names and all these, like, you've probably wondered a little bit, like, what does that look like?

[00:01:51] Can I be Paul or Peter and just really be bold and tell those interrogators, do your worst, I can take it, right? Are we just going to totally shrink and be a coward and be like, no, please, I'll do whatever you tell me. Right. I mean, what's going to happen. And I think the reality is it's not always so clean and easy, and it's probably going to be, would be a lot of things that you wouldn't expect. Right. And so I think today is a very special episode that we get a inside look into what that might actually look like.

[00:02:23] Matt: Yes, absolutely. In this episode, we'll be talking to Josh, and this happened to him. He was detained by a foreign authority, and he had no idea what the future held, how long he was going to be held, and what the outcome would be.

[00:02:38] And, and like Jess said, I think we all have thoughts of what we would do in a situation like that. But then when the moment happens, I think all bets are off. So we're just going to jump right into the conversation with Josh as he tells us his story.

[00:02:50] Josh: I think I knew when I first moved overseas that, like, living in foreign countries was going to be difficult, but I don't know I was fully prepared for like the added stress level of, of living, especially in an area where I guess you would consider it politically sensitive.

[00:03:08] So, you know, throughout our time as a family living in this country, we would, you know, You know, constantly see military in the streets. We would like, there were, there was always this sense that you were being watched, you were being monitored and and that you weren't fully trusted. And you kind of get used to that.

[00:03:28] As you live there, as you live in these kind of countries but it's not until you leave that you really appreciate how much stress that kind of adds. And so, you know, it, it seems silly to say this, but the first time that I was on the street, I was actually capturing a local festival with my camera.

[00:03:45] Media is one of the things that I love doing. I was doing some travel related stuff. And I remember the first time that the police kind of took me off the streets and, and put me in a car and drove me away. And the fact that that wasn't like an immediate shock to my system tells you kind of like what level of just kind of military and police presence we were in when we, when we lived out there.

[00:04:10] But this time was, was a little bit different. I remember this distinctly. So this is back in, and this was in late 2017. And we had, I was taken off the street. They had seen me taking pictures. And then they pulled me into a police station. They grabbed my camera, they took my phone, they took everything away from me and and then started bringing me downstairs into where the holding cells were.

[00:04:33] And that's when I started like you know, freaking out just a little bit, you know, like I not, not quite understanding what was going on. We'd lived in this particular country for almost a decade at this point. So it wasn't like we were unfamiliar. It wasn't like, like I wasn't able to communicate in the local language.

[00:04:50] But they take me down and and yeah, like I remember passing by a cell and there was a man in that cell who was just sitting there with like this dead look in his face. Like he just, I don't know how long he'd been there. But in this country, I think in most countries outside the Western world, when we think of a, of a holding cell or even a prison cell, it's, it's not the comfortable, Hey, you've got a mat, you've got maybe a TV.

[00:05:14] We're talking about like a, a concrete slab. And not even a window. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm pretty sure they're walking me by here to like, make me afraid. And if they are that it's working and you know, the cameras are watching every step we take. And they brought me into an interrogation room, which if you've watched any, Western TV, you know, kind of looked like what you think it would look like.

[00:05:41] You got that two way mirror. You've got just a single table and then two chairs on either side. And this really started what ended up being, this was the first time. And then there was a second time where we were taken in as a family as well-- where the Lord really tested. my faith personally, but even our family together in trying to understand, okay, you know, what, what happens when, you know, we go out in ministry, even, even, even just as regular people anywhere in the world, like where our identity is, you know, In certain parts of our lives, right?

[00:06:17] Whether that is in ministry, being a ministry worker, or whether that's just being a business person, whether that's being a husband or a dad, like all of these identities, what happens when all of that gets stripped away? And that was what I faced in that moment was you know, we had lived in this country and done ministry in this country for almost a decade and there had been difficulties, but it had never been to this level.

[00:06:43] And suddenly we find, I find myself, in a, in a, basically a holding cell in the bottom of a police station. Just wondering is, is like, is this it? Like, I, I don't even know what, What to do next. And it was quite, it was, it was a jarring experience, as you can imagine. But but it's, it's hard to even describe it, I guess, to really fully give you context.

[00:07:05] Does that make sense?

[00:07:05] Matt: It's, I'm imagining that they don't have the same rules in this country in terms of reading you your rights, understanding what it is that you're being detained for, and possibly having an opportunity, you know, to contact an attorney or somebody like that. I mean, it's, it's there is probably just going into the unknown very much.

[00:07:26] Josh: 100%. And, and even though like pioneers, I feel like did a really good job in our training of just trying to prepare us for certain situations, right. And doing security trainings and doing a lot of this stuff. And, and even letting us know a little bit of what we should be legally allowed according to international law.

[00:07:45] Rules, you know, I should be allowed to have some kind of interpreter, right? Or at least that's what I think. And I remember the first day of our, so there, there was one interrogation period that lasted it was 17 days. We were detained and interrogated for 17 days. And during that time with the first day, I remember asking, "Hey, I would like an interpreter," you know, thinking that I was doing the right thing here.

[00:08:10] And and their response was. Okay, we'll give you an interpreter, but here's the deal. If you force us to go through all of this hassle of getting an interpreter and now having to communicate one, you know, like this, then we're going to hold you in this prison cell for the evenings. But if you just do this using the local language, then we will take you home at night and you can sleep, you know, with in your own bed with your family.

[00:08:37] And I think what I wasn't prepared for was the fact that when you go into these situations, these people are trained professionals and I am not. A trained professional when it comes to like, like I wasn't trained, we're trained to do ministry. We're not trained to be interrogated. And that was what happened every single night.

[00:08:58] And so, you know, after a full day, like 12 hours of interrogation the second day they were like, okay, do you want to go home to your wife and kids? Well, yes, I do. Okay. Well then write down the name of every foreigner, you, you know, Oh, goodness. Okay. You know, like how comfortable do I feel doing this?

[00:09:17] Like, can I just like, do I know like tons, I know tons of foreigners, some that are in ministry, some that aren't. So if I just write, like if I flood all these and then the next day write down, you know, the names of any local workers that you've been connected with those type of things. It really just, it, it makes you question whether you're doing like, like whatever I'm, whatever decisions I'm making, it never feels like the right one.

[00:09:45] And, and I don't know if I'm doing this, if I'm hurting, like if I'm going to hurt anybody else, or if I'm you know, doing something that's going to hurt me. myself or my family. There was a lot of second guessing. And and I, you know, as I reflected on it later, I realized that a lot of that was intentional, right? Just introducing confusion, introducing a lot of mind games that that I wasn't prepared for.

[00:10:07] Jess: Wow. So like, can I ask, what did you do in those situations where they make you like write down names and all that kind of stuff? And you're just, I just can only imagine the kind of conflict that you're feeling at that time.

[00:10:19] Josh: Well, and keep in mind just so that you and everybody who's listening to this knows, like my wife and I went through a lot of counseling following this whole ordeal. So there, there was a lot, I mean, I still sometimes deal with, with shame related not necessarily to this particular thing, but, but to the whole incident in general.

[00:10:37] I did, I filled a page with every name that I could think of from foreigners that had been, you know, just secular English teachers for deck, you know, that I'd known for the whole decade. Like I, I decided that if I could just fill that page with a hundred names that that that would be the best course of action.

[00:10:57] And then when it came to local names, a lot of times, truth be told, I didn't know the actual name of the people I was working with. I just knew their like nickname that we always went by. And so I ended up just kind of. Putting a bunch of names of people that I knew, whether or not they were involved with any part of the ministry or not.

[00:11:17] And and the cool thing was we actually, there was another family that was going through this with us. And somehow we were able to connect with them after one of my interrogation sessions. And and he said, he told me later, he's like, listen, they've asked me to give names. I don't know what I should do.

[00:11:34] And I was like, Oh, I've, I've already given them. And I was able to tell him everything that I'd done. He's like, okay, good. Then those are the ones like now I know what I can list out and not list these others that I was thinking about. And so there was this cool kind of God moment where he allowed us to connect on some certain things that like I didn't realize that we would get to do and hopefully, hopefully keep from sharing more than we needed to.

[00:11:59] Jess: Yeah, for reals. So, you know, just kind of as you're going through that, and obviously, like you said, you're not a professional. I mean, what is, what is it that you, you think kind of really got you through 17 days. And, you know, I'm sure that there were like multiple different instances, but what kind of like helped you just keep going back to the, to the police station and kind of keep your head on straight and all those kinds of things throughout this whole ordeal?

[00:12:22] Josh: Yeah. Well, again, lots of counseling afterwards. So it's not like I was I, I, and, and that I think Jess would be a great point to make that you know, a part of what made me feel so shame, so shameful, like in, like in the aftermath of all of this is I feel like I grew up reading these stories of missionaries that when these type of adversities came, like they were like, I mean, it's almost like it made them stronger, that they stood taller, that they were able to like, just sit there and go, you do your worst.

[00:12:57] I, you know, I trust 100 percent in God. And maybe there are people like that. Maybe some of those stories are true. And I don't want to discount that, but what I've come to at least, think or hope or believe I'm not sure is that I think that everyone who's had one of those stories happen. I think at some point went through the valley of intense fear and intense, just like, God, I don't know what's going on because I know I did.

[00:13:26] So the example I give is, you know, I went through, let's say 12 hours of interrogation. And it's the mentally taxing linguistically. Just hard to have gone through that whole thing. Like your, your mind is still just swimming. And, and I can say with, with just amazement, not because I did this, but because it's like, it is definitely the work of, of the Holy Spirit that I was able to make it through that with, you know, with, with just, just make it through that.

[00:13:58] But then the moment they dropped me off at home. I, like my kids are asleep. It's late at night. It's like 11 PM at night and I walk through the door. My wife sees me. She doesn't even know if she's going to get to see me, right? Because they told her as I'm leaving that morning, " Say goodbye. You're never seeing your husband again."

[00:14:16] So I walk in at 11 o'clock. She's shocked to see me. And I just like. I, I'm, I'm not going to lie. I wept like a baby. I fell on the floor. I was a puddle on the floor of my own apartment. And the antithesis of what I remember reading about missionaries, like I'm the guy who's just scared. out of his mind that he's going to lose his wife and his kids and that I don't, I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:14:44] Not trained for this. What am I going to do? And, and it was, it wasn't until, and I can share a little bit more of this story later because they actually said to me. And during interrogations, you actually, that like, you actually want us to believe that you're a missionary and not a spy. And then they started asking me all about my, any missions work that I had done.

[00:15:03] And they say, you actually want us to believe that if that's true, you are the world's worst missionary. Like that, they literally said that to me. Like, if, if you want us to actually believe that you're a missionary, you are literally the world's worst missionary. Therefore you must be a spy. And so I have to sit there and go, " Yeah, I guess I am the world's worst missionary because I'm not a spy." You know, but I remember when I was back in the United States after all this had been finished and the Lord, like as I was going through Proverbs there's that verse in Proverbs that says the name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and they are safe.

[00:15:43] And, and, and I felt as I was reading that, that like for the first time. All over again. It felt like I was saying, you know, there's an enemy that is coming at this character, right? Whoever this is in this, in this proverb. And does he like stand in holy defiance? No. What does he do? He turns around and runs to the strong tower.

[00:16:06] That is the name of the Lord. And it's not necessarily something that I should be ashamed of. As a matter of fact, I, I need to be confident in the fact that I found my identity and I found my confidence not in anything that I could do because I was a mess, but only in the fact that God sustained me through probably one of the hardest things I'll ever have to go through.

[00:16:30] Matt: Now this experience I know it led to an unusual goal for you. So can you tell us about how, what that goal is and also how it fits into this experience that you had being detained and not knowing what the future held for you?

[00:16:45] Josh: Yeah. It's really, it's a challenge to describe what it feels like to be in a position where you don't know how long something will last.

[00:16:55] Right. If I tell you that you have to sit in a you know, in a, let's say a crunch position for 10 seconds, you can like, okay, I'm going to sit, you know, like I can do a crunch or I can do a, you know, a, let's say, what am I trying to think of like a plank position, right? You do that for 10 seconds. Like, okay, I can count down.

[00:17:14] But if I say do that plank until I say stop, and it could be 10 seconds, it could be a minute, right? Like not knowing how long that's going to last. Your, your mind, it's, it's so much harder for you. You could, you could last a lot longer if you just know how long you have to do it. Right. I don't know if that's a great analogy or not, but the idea being, Oh, it is.

[00:17:36] Yeah. The idea being if you had told me from the outset, okay, this is only going to last 17 days, 12 hour days, you're going to go home with your wife and eventually you're going to go back to the U S and everything will be fine. If you'd have told me that in the beginning, I would have just like, Oh man.

[00:17:52] Yeah, sure. I can do this. But when you're going through it and you don't know how long this is going to last, and you don't know if I'm going to get to see my kids, you know, later that evening I don't know this first day that they take me. Are they going to hold me for days, weeks, like months that that's happened before in this country?

[00:18:12] It's not like it's unprecedented. So, you know, for me, what starts happening is your mind begins to wander into this territory of Oh, okay. Well, what am I going to do if I'm stuck in that particular cell that I told you I walked by this whole, this other gentleman where there is no TV, there are no books, there's no devices, there's no nothing, there's nothing that you can take with you.

[00:18:37] So the only thing that I have is what I have in my mind, basically memories. And then of course, as faith goes, the word of God that has been stored in my heart. And I don't know for, for many people who maybe grew up in Sunday school or Juana's, you know, you, you've hopefully gone through and memorized a number of verses, but for some reason, after we hit high school, like that kind of just goes away for many of us.

[00:19:07] I mean, I know it was for me. So. It's almost embarrassing to say this, having been a Christian for most all my life and now being in ministry, you know, serving overseas and finding myself in this position and then doing inventory and realizing I can only come up with like 20 verses. And if like, if I'm here for weeks or months, that's not going to sustain me, right?

[00:19:35] That's, that's not good. And so I remember just that feeling of, I, I cannot believe that this is all that I have stored up, you know, and, and it, you know, we, we all know the verses, whether it's, Psalm one or other places that I, where have I hidden my heart that I might not sin against you. Right. And like, and even in Joshua one, eight, where it talks about just meditating on his word day and night.

[00:20:01] Well, how could you do that in a position like in a, in a jail cell if you don't actually have it hidden in your heart? And so that was when I decided, Hey, this is, This is something that if I get out of this, and it wasn't one of those, you know, Hey God, if you get me out of this, I will. It was just at that moment, I realized this.

[00:20:18] is important to me. And if, when I find myself in a position where I have the ability to really prioritize memorizing the Bible, I think that's something that I want to do. I hopefully I never find myself in this position again, and so far I haven't, but I want to have God's word hidden in my heart. I want to know it better than I thought I did.

[00:20:43] And I didn't know it as well as I thought I did.

[00:20:46] Matt: No. So, so then what was the goal as you came out? I mean, I realize there's like this general goal of hiding the word in your heart.

[00:20:54] Josh: Yeah. So then you know, my, my story is, is one of always consistently either falling short or, or doing foolish things. And so here's, here's the one where I do a foolish thing.

[00:21:04] I decided, wow, you know, I I think I, I, I remember I did a little test where I was like, how fast can I memorize the book of Philemon? And it was like, a day, you know, if you really put your mind to it, it's, it's only 25 or Filey. And I'm thinking of Jude file, Yeoman. Yeah. I think it's like 25 verses, 24, something like that.

[00:21:23] And so I was just like, okay, let's see how that goes. And it was really fast. And so I started doing the math. I was like, well, I could. Maybe do the whole New Testament in a couple years. Like this would be really cool. So I set myself this massive goal of like, all right, let's see if I can memorize the Bible word for word.

[00:21:42] The New Testament, right? Not the, not the Old Testament. That that's crazy, but, but at least just the New Testament. And at the time I was 38 and I said, I want to do it by the time I turned 40. So that was, that was the goal I set. I, you know, hopefully it doesn't come as a surprise to anybody that I didn't realize how hard that would be and had to revise that goal over time.

[00:22:05] But at this point I'm, you know, working on my 12th book memorized. And it's just one of those things where. It has now become just one of those goals that I honestly don't care how long it takes me to get there. I just know that I've enjoyed the journey so far and, and so that's, that's one of the things that I love doing.

[00:22:26] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like it's, it's more than just a goal, but it's become something of a spiritual practice. Yes. You know, has, it's, it's more than just something that you're reaching for, for, you know, credit or to be able to boast about. I mean, there's, there's some, there's spiritual benefits obviously that come with this.

[00:22:47] Josh: Most definitely. And I think, you know, when it comes to memorizing God's word, a lot of those benefits actually take time to mature and, and really be realized. Even just the idea that now as I'm going through, You know, first Peter, I'm trying to memorize first Peter and I get to you know, verses 24 and 25 of for the first chapter, first Peter, where he is quoting something from Isaiah and I'm like, wait a second, that sounds exactly like what James quotes in, in, in his letter as well.

[00:23:20] Like literally they're, they use different wording, but they quote the same one and, and almost seeing those cross references in the Bible without having to actually, you like look up the cross references. And I love that. Like, I, I love being able to discover things in God's word. You know, there, there's great things about going through a Bible study.

[00:23:40] I certainly love doing that myself, but that, that. Feeling of ownership or that feeling of discovery finding those things in God's word where it's like, wow, that phrase, that, that phrase sounds so familiar. I, I'm pretty sure Paul used that exact same phrase in Colossians, right? When he was talking, I wonder why, like, what is it that he's thinking when he's using that particular phrase?

[00:24:03] And, and those are the type of things that really it takes time to develop. But. Those are the benefits that I like a lot more than proclaiming some goal. And I was certainly not trying to get credit for how much I've memorized. Cause I, that's obviously kind of pointless.

[00:24:20] Matt: Yeah.

[00:24:21] Jess: I mean, I think for me, I remember, and I wasn't living in Japan.

[00:24:24] Right. So like, it's one of the countries where you have the least fear of. Of religious persecution in the world. But even me, I remember I was convicted at one point that like, Hey, like a time might come where we don't have access to the Bible, where we don't have access to the world. And at that point, the only place where I can access it is what I already have inside my own heart.

[00:24:43] And so I've totally gotten out of the habit of it, but I remember spending some time memorizing the Psalms and thinking like, Oh, this is what they're talking about when they say meditate day and night. Because when you're really. actively trying to memorize you just kind of like think about it all day because you're like I put all that effort into it this morning I don't want to forget it like two hours later and so you just kind of end up thinking about it and you remember it at nighttime right before you go to sleep and all that and so just hearing your story is really kind of motivating me like I really got to get back into that habit and start memorizing scripture again but what are some of your like practices to do it well.

[00:25:17] Cause like you said, it's really easy to memorize five or six verses today, but if I'm going to memorize five or six verses every day, I mean, I'm really going to forget those first five or six verses pretty quickly.

[00:25:27] Josh: Yeah. And you know, that's so I've just For my own benefit, I actually started a podcast where I interviewed a lot of people who had already done a lot of Bible memory.

[00:25:37] And part of my goal of doing that was just to try to figure out what are, what are you doing so that I could learn from it and, and like really just taking all of their techniques and creating my own, like the way that I do it. And, you know, there's a lot of great memory stuff out there. One of my favorite things is, is combining memory techniques with.

[00:25:58] Like really good habit stuff. Right. And so there's something called habit stacking. You know, a lot of people that I know that, that talk about Bible memory you know, it's, it's the same thing. It's like, oh yeah, I know that's a good thing. I probably should do it. And either I don't have a lot of time or I don't have a good memory.

[00:26:16] And the time thing is, is really a lot easier than you think, because, you know, there are a lot of habits that we have throughout the day. That we do on a regular basis and habit stacking is taking something that you want to do and stacking it on top of something that you already do. So an example for me is I've got a golden retriever dog and and that dog needs a walk every single morning.

[00:26:38] And so I wake up before my family gets up out of bed and I take her on a walk. It's a habit that we do every day. Every single day, and it takes us 15 minutes to go the circuit that we usually go. And during that 15 minutes, that is the time that I stack on my review, right? So I can say the book of second Timothy in about 12 minutes.

[00:26:58] So it takes me that circuit right there. Right now I'm going through first Peter and so I can get through, I can review chapter one, and then I can do, let's say about 10 to 12 verses of chapter two. And that's the time that I spend doing that. It's, it's when your hands are busy. But your mind is not.

[00:27:16] So whether that's washing the dishes or driving or something like that, there are a lot of times, especially when you're living overseas where you're doing some, like, you've got to do some administrative thing. Like even just today I was, I'm, I'm living still in, in a different part of Asia and I was sitting in immigration, you know, and I could scroll on my phone, play a game.

[00:27:38] Or I could use that time to just go over some of the verses that I've, I've memorized and it's, it's really being intentional about that time and and then finding ways where you can stack onto current habits. Does that make sense, Jess?

[00:27:51] Jess: Yeah, no, that's so good. I love how like practical. That is, and how really anyone can do it.

[00:27:56] You don't have to be this like super Christian, like preacher, know the Bible super well already, right? You can just kind of add it on something small and bite sized to your everyday. So I really love how practical that is. Yeah,

[00:28:09] Josh: definitely.

[00:28:10] Matt: Yeah. What are some of the benefits that you feel like You've experienced in your own life as a result of it, or that you've heard other people have in because obviously you're part of now a community of people that are doing this, this is part of their lifestyle.

[00:28:27] So what are some of the things that you're hearing common denominators, maybe common threads of benefits that people experience? Yeah,

[00:28:34] Josh: I mean, I think the most. Common benefit is really a deeper connection with the voice of God. You know, we, we tend to underestimate just what it means to have what I would call the language of scripture and understanding that, that voice.

[00:28:51] You know, the Bible talks about the, the, the sheep know the shepherd's voice. Well, how do you think they know that voice? They know it by listening to it constantly. And you know, we have this tendency, at least in the Western world, I would say, to think of time in the word as chronological. Quiet time, first of all, it's very quiet and it's gotta be in a chair, you know, in a corner in the dark space for like five, 10 minutes.

[00:29:16] If you're really holy, maybe you've got 20 to 30 minutes, right? And I've begun to kind of like think, wow, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be that way. Like for me, my favorite times of just really communion with the Lord and communion with his word and hearing him speak to me. I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but a lot of times I've, I've.

[00:29:38] You know, wanted to hear God's voice, you know, or to have him answer me in something. And sometimes we're expecting some voice from the clouds to say something. A lot of times God uses scripture to speak to us. That is his word, his gift to us. And when I am reciting scripture to myself, not only am I allowing him to speak to me in that way, but I'm also opening myself up to hearing things that maybe I wasn't aware of before, like even as I was talking about reading over Proverbs again, and suddenly, wow, it takes on this new meaning to me that I, that I hadn't thought of before.

[00:30:16] So like those kind of, I guess, just that intimacy with the voice of God, with, with, with God's word that he has gifted us is probably one of the greatest benefits. And, you know, one of the things that You could be memorizing for the rest of your life, or you could be digging into God's Word, just studying for the rest of your life, and we're never going to get to the bottom of it.

[00:30:38] So, you know, if, if that's just a, a constant source of wisdom for us and even a source of comfort, then I don't see, Why you wouldn't want to do it. I heard one guy, I'll say this real quick. I heard one guy say it to me like this. He's like, if you knew if you could go back in time and I could tell you in the 1980s, Hey, go buy Amazon stock when it comes out, or, you know, like go buy Google stock.

[00:31:02] Cause trust me, it's like, you're the, it's gonna blow up. It's like, that's the way that I see scripture memory. It's like, if I can, I can promise you that if you invest in this now, It will reap amazing benefits that you couldn't believe later, but you just, you just got to invest. You just got to go and do it.

[00:31:20] That's great. Are

[00:31:21] Matt: there any tools that you've found? Obviously there's, there was possibly apps or other resources that you can maybe share with our, our listeners that could help if they're wanting to. Absolutely.

[00:31:35] Josh: I mean, there are a lot of different manual and digital ways that you can use to really memorize more of God's word.

[00:31:42] There's some, there's one of my favorite apps is one called the Bible memory app, like really creative name, the Bible memory app. There's one called verse locker and others, but you could really just use three by five cards or a notebook to track a lot of this stuff. But there's also a lot of great.

[00:31:58] Like there's a memory, there's a whole memory world, like the secular memory world where people are memorizing decks of cards, right? Or I heard about somebody who memorized one of the Harry Potter books and you could add, you could tell them a page, a line, and a number of, you know, the word on that line.

[00:32:15] And they could tell you that. And it's, Unbelievable. Right. It's like, it's fascinating. And at the same time, it's like, but you memorized that, like you're memorizing decks of cards really? And, and that's where like, even the name of the podcast that I eventually started doing was called memorize what matters.

[00:32:35] Cause like that, that was the whole thing that I was in my mind. I'm like, I don't want to spend my time memorizing just random lyrics of songs or, or things that we do tend to passively memorize. I want to memorize what matters and, and be intentional about that. And so, you know, one of the things that I've done as I, as, as I've really talked with a lot of these different people is is getting an understanding of what kind of techniques and methods are out there and understanding that for most of us, we think that memorizing.

[00:33:04] God's word. And Jess, I don't know, Matt, maybe this is you too as well, means just repeating it a hundred times over and over until you just literally cannot not remember it. Right. We call that rote repetition. And for some reason that's kind of our default way of memorizing, but there are so many creative ways.

[00:33:22] God has designed our brain. In a very interesting way such that we have spatial awareness. I can walk through my childhood home and I can tell you exactly where my window and bed were when I was doing that. But I can forget where I put my keys yesterday, right? Like there, but, but there are different ways that we can take advantage of that.

[00:33:42] And and that's where I decided, like, I actually recently wrote a book, like taking all of these ideas and saying, okay, how can we really take advantage of these these memory techniques for biblical, like applying it to the Bible and memorizing scriptures opposed to memorizing decks of cards or memorizing, you know, the Harry Potter book.

[00:34:04] Like, how can we take this and apply it to memorizing what matters? And that's, what's been really fun for me.

[00:34:10] Jess: I love the title of your podcast, Memorize What Matters. That's so cool. Because I mean, if you think about it, like, you know, the, like the God, the word is God. Right. And then like by memorizing, it's like, you're like literally building that temple of the Lord, like in your own heart.

[00:34:24] Right. And so to really kind of think of it in terms of that eternal perspective, I think that's such a. Great way to give something that is, like you said, I mean, I do like rote memorization. That's what I've always done. Right. But to kind of give it more life. Right. And to kind of consider it more like, no, this is like a really dynamic thing that takes use of the way the Lord has created you and your brain and the way that your mind functions and stuff and to really kind of consider all of that as well.

[00:34:52] I think that makes it so much more engaging. Then just like memorizing John 3 16. Absolutely.

[00:34:58] Josh: And it's one of those things that if, if somebody is listening to this, whether they want to go into ministry or whether they're just going to be in their job or whatever role they have back in their home country, like this, isn't like getting a seminary degree where it's, it's not necessarily accessible to everybody.

[00:35:15] This is something that we can all do. And it benefits. All of us, whether we are, whether we think of ourselves as in ministry or whether we're going overseas. And especially I think if we're going overseas and representing the Lord in another country, in another culture, in another context.

[00:35:32] Jess: And imagine like if you had like a community of people who, who memorized together and like one day we really didn't have access to the word.

[00:35:39] Well, like I didn't memorize Matthew, but you did. And I memorized. First Timothy. So like, we can kind of like share and all together, like as a community, it's almost like you have the Bible together. Right. So, I mean, I think there's just so many different ways it brings the body of Christ together.

[00:35:52] Absolutely. That's really cool.

[00:35:53] Matt: Yeah. So Josh, I know that you ended up having to leave the country, that you talked about at the beginning of this conversation. What does your ministry look like now?

[00:36:04] Josh: And so part of what I get to do, I run my own business and and that is actually what funds us. So I pay my own salary now.

[00:36:11] I pay the salary of a couple of employees and contractors that you know, if as much as I can, I'm using people that are workers on the field or that are locals that I can help support by doing that. But then what I love being able to do is. Training people into what I call creative funding mindset.

[00:36:29] So not everybody can necessarily start a business. Not everybody can actually run a business, but there are ways, especially for third world missions, where we've got people coming from different parts of Asia here that their, their home churches can barely afford. to pay their pastor, much less to send somebody.

[00:36:49] And yet they have people who are so passionate to be sent. So then what does that mean for them? How can they find creative funding? And so that's a lot of what I've been trying to help with using the expertise that God's given me. I do a lot of media, YouTube podcasts, websites, stuff like that.

[00:37:08] That's, that's what my business does. And Yeah, I did that. I didn't your question, Matt.

[00:37:14] Matt: No, that's, that's great. That's wonderful. I do want to give an opportunity for you to share some of the websites. We will put these in the show notes, but any resources that you have out there as it relates to Bible memory or even some, some of these business areas as well.

[00:37:30] Josh: So, yeah, like I, I have a media company, it runs a number of different brands, both Secular and, you know, ministry related, but the, the one having to do with Bible memory is called Bible memory goal. So you can go to Bible memory goal. com. I have a new book coming out, like I said, about memorizing the Bible.

[00:37:46] And all that has is if you just go to memorize what matters. com and that'll redirect you to where that is on, on Amazon. But also that's the name of the podcast that I do. And the cool thing is you know, We have like, there's a free community. So it's like a closed social media site where thousands of people from around the world who enjoy memorizing the Bible are able to come together and then share that, like ask questions, but also, you know, I think it's really cool.

[00:38:13] One of the things I love doing is, is celebrating wins. And it really feels awkward. Like Jess, if I were to meet you at church one day and I'd be like, Hey Jess, guess what? I just finished second, you know, first Peter, can I say it to you? It's like, It's just awkward. It's really weird. But at the same time, like, I think there's value in celebrating that.

[00:38:33] And so having a community of people to where that isn't awkward. You, you post a video of your, of you saying, you know, first Timothy, or even that we've got people that just memorize individual verses. So I don't want you to think that, you know, you have to memorize. extended passages for it to be valuable, but like even just individual verses and being able to say, Hey, I had, this is what I wanted to do.

[00:38:55] I accomplished it and I'm really excited about it. And, and just have a bunch of people that go, yeah, we're excited for you.

[00:39:01] Matt: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. It's, it's just your story has been amazing. Challenging I think and I hope people explore how they might even consider in you know Putting this into their life and benefiting from it as well both spiritually and I'm sure also there's probably mental benefits Yeah, well when you stretch the fibers of your brain in this way Which is probably why this is popular in the secular world as well but for us There's many more benefits, spiritual benefits in particular, I can think of with this.

[00:39:35] So before we go, anything you've been reading or listening to or podcasts you've been enjoying that you want to share with our listeners?

[00:39:43] Josh: Well, one of the podcasts that my wife got me on that I've really enjoyed is one called Bema. I don't know if you've ever heard of that before. It's B E M A. It's just a great kind of walking through the Bible through really a Jewish cultural perspective.

[00:39:57] And a lot of really, you know, Interesting insights that, that are gleaned through going through that. So, I mean, they've got a number of seasons, but even just going back to the very beginning as they go to Genesis has been really fascinating. And then the, the geek in me, I'm like, I just finished a book on George Washington recently on the years between the end of the revolutionary war and when he actually took his presidency that I thought was really fascinating.

[00:40:19] I think it's Yeah, it's, I, I, I love seeing. People in history that we venerate and, and see as like these amazing people, and then getting to see a little bit behind the scenes and going, Oh yeah, they weren't perfect. Right. And, and like, I, I think that's true, whether it's a secular, you know, George Washington, or even a lot of the people that we that we look up to in the Christian world.

[00:40:48] And, and, you know, it's just this recognition that we're all, we're all a little. fallen, a lot fallen. And and it's, and it's okay to realize that.

[00:40:59] Jess: Whenever I hear stories of missionaries who are just abruptly pulled straight out of their ministries, I always kind of wonder what happened to the people they left behind.

[00:41:07] And I'm sure a lot of those stories are ones that we and that worker will get to hear up in heaven. But if you'd like to hear a little bit of a preview of that, of what happened in the wake of Josh leaving, of what happened to one of the people that he was ministering to, then check out our bonus episode.

[00:41:26] Matt: Yes. Thanks, Jess. Also, I want to mention this Occurrence that josh and his family face is actually quite common, not necessarily getting detained, but having to leave the country that you believe God has called you toward, where you have learned language, where you've made friends and built relationships.

[00:41:42] Many times, out of your control, you have to leave, you have to go somewhere else. And so we've actually compiled a book of stories called items may have shifted that tell stories of people that this has happened to missionaries that have had to been rerouted in the course of their ministry and then how God planted them somewhere else and they became fruitful in that new area of ministry.

[00:42:02] So there'll be a link to that book in our show notes. It's free on our website. And also you can get it on Kindle and in paperback on Amazon.

[00:42:10] Jess: Thanks for following us on this episode Podcast. Our goal is to make missions accessible to show that it's not just reserved for elite super Christians. If you want to be involved, just go to pioneers.

[00:42:22] org slash start and answer a few questions. We have a team who would love to help you discern your calling and what your next steps might be.

[00:42:29] Matt: At Pioneers, we love to partner with local churches and send teams to people groups with little or no access to the gospel. Keep up with what God is doing by following us on Instagram, Facebook, All at Pioneers USA, one word, or visit pioneers.

[00:42:44] org. Thanks for listening.

[00:00:00] Josh: And suddenly we find, I find myself, in a, in a, basically a holding cell, in the bottom of a police station, just wondering, is, is like, is this it? Like, I, I don't even know what, what to do next. And it was quite, it was a jarring experience, as you can imagine.

[00:00:18] Matt: This is the Relentless Pursuit Podcast, where we hear stories from cross cultural workers on what it's really like to be a missionary, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:00:26] Jess: Welcome back to season four of the Relentless Pursuit podcast. We are so excited to be back on the air with you guys to share some amazing stories of what the Lord is doing all over the world, and how he is using his people. So Matt, give us a little bit of a teaser of what we've got coming this coming season.

[00:00:44] Matt: Yeah, here's what we can expect. We're going to talk about the topic of missions and disability. Does disability prevent you from being effective as a missionary on the field, or if there's someone in your family that has disability? We're going to talk about church planting what that looks like in a country like Iceland, which we don't necessarily automatically think of as being a country that has unreached people in it.

[00:01:05] And then cycling and the gospel, what does it look like to take your passion for cycling into communities that are unreached? And can God use your passion for that to make you effective among the unreached? We're going to talk about business development. I mean, there's just so many different topics that we want to cover in this season of Relentless Pursuit. So we're so excited you joined us and we're, we're looking forward to episodes ahead.

[00:01:30] Jess: If you've ever considered going overseas as a missionary, you've probably also wondered what happens if the worst happens. If I get interrogated, if I get Detained and imprisoned and I'm under the scope and they're asking me about my work and my ministry and, you know, they're asking me to name names and all these, like, you've probably wondered a little bit, like, what does that look like?

[00:01:51] Can I be Paul or Peter and just really be bold and tell those interrogators, do your worst, I can take it, right? Are we just going to totally shrink and be a coward and be like, no, please, I'll do whatever you tell me. Right. I mean, what's going to happen. And I think the reality is it's not always so clean and easy, and it's probably going to be, would be a lot of things that you wouldn't expect. Right. And so I think today is a very special episode that we get a inside look into what that might actually look like.

[00:02:23] Matt: Yes, absolutely. In this episode, we'll be talking to Josh, and this happened to him. He was detained by a foreign authority, and he had no idea what the future held, how long he was going to be held, and what the outcome would be.

[00:02:38] And, and like Jess said, I think we all have thoughts of what we would do in a situation like that. But then when the moment happens, I think all bets are off. So we're just going to jump right into the conversation with Josh as he tells us his story.

[00:02:50] Josh: I think I knew when I first moved overseas that, like, living in foreign countries was going to be difficult, but I don't know I was fully prepared for like the added stress level of, of living, especially in an area where I guess you would consider it politically sensitive.

[00:03:08] So, you know, throughout our time as a family living in this country, we would, you know, You know, constantly see military in the streets. We would like, there were, there was always this sense that you were being watched, you were being monitored and and that you weren't fully trusted. And you kind of get used to that.

[00:03:28] As you live there, as you live in these kind of countries but it's not until you leave that you really appreciate how much stress that kind of adds. And so, you know, it, it seems silly to say this, but the first time that I was on the street, I was actually capturing a local festival with my camera.

[00:03:45] Media is one of the things that I love doing. I was doing some travel related stuff. And I remember the first time that the police kind of took me off the streets and, and put me in a car and drove me away. And the fact that that wasn't like an immediate shock to my system tells you kind of like what level of just kind of military and police presence we were in when we, when we lived out there.

[00:04:10] But this time was, was a little bit different. I remember this distinctly. So this is back in, and this was in late 2017. And we had, I was taken off the street. They had seen me taking pictures. And then they pulled me into a police station. They grabbed my camera, they took my phone, they took everything away from me and and then started bringing me downstairs into where the holding cells were.

[00:04:33] And that's when I started like you know, freaking out just a little bit, you know, like I not, not quite understanding what was going on. We'd lived in this particular country for almost a decade at this point. So it wasn't like we were unfamiliar. It wasn't like, like I wasn't able to communicate in the local language.

[00:04:50] But they take me down and and yeah, like I remember passing by a cell and there was a man in that cell who was just sitting there with like this dead look in his face. Like he just, I don't know how long he'd been there. But in this country, I think in most countries outside the Western world, when we think of a, of a holding cell or even a prison cell, it's, it's not the comfortable, Hey, you've got a mat, you've got maybe a TV.

[00:05:14] We're talking about like a, a concrete slab. And not even a window. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm pretty sure they're walking me by here to like, make me afraid. And if they are that it's working and you know, the cameras are watching every step we take. And they brought me into an interrogation room, which if you've watched any, Western TV, you know, kind of looked like what you think it would look like.

[00:05:41] You got that two way mirror. You've got just a single table and then two chairs on either side. And this really started what ended up being, this was the first time. And then there was a second time where we were taken in as a family as well-- where the Lord really tested. my faith personally, but even our family together in trying to understand, okay, you know, what, what happens when, you know, we go out in ministry, even, even, even just as regular people anywhere in the world, like where our identity is, you know, In certain parts of our lives, right?

[00:06:17] Whether that is in ministry, being a ministry worker, or whether that's just being a business person, whether that's being a husband or a dad, like all of these identities, what happens when all of that gets stripped away? And that was what I faced in that moment was you know, we had lived in this country and done ministry in this country for almost a decade and there had been difficulties, but it had never been to this level.

[00:06:43] And suddenly we find, I find myself, in a, in a, basically a holding cell in the bottom of a police station. Just wondering is, is like, is this it? Like, I, I don't even know what, What to do next. And it was quite, it was, it was a jarring experience, as you can imagine. But but it's, it's hard to even describe it, I guess, to really fully give you context.

[00:07:05] Does that make sense?

[00:07:05] Matt: It's, I'm imagining that they don't have the same rules in this country in terms of reading you your rights, understanding what it is that you're being detained for, and possibly having an opportunity, you know, to contact an attorney or somebody like that. I mean, it's, it's there is probably just going into the unknown very much.

[00:07:26] Josh: 100%. And, and even though like pioneers, I feel like did a really good job in our training of just trying to prepare us for certain situations, right. And doing security trainings and doing a lot of this stuff. And, and even letting us know a little bit of what we should be legally allowed according to international law.

[00:07:45] Rules, you know, I should be allowed to have some kind of interpreter, right? Or at least that's what I think. And I remember the first day of our, so there, there was one interrogation period that lasted it was 17 days. We were detained and interrogated for 17 days. And during that time with the first day, I remember asking, "Hey, I would like an interpreter," you know, thinking that I was doing the right thing here.

[00:08:10] And and their response was. Okay, we'll give you an interpreter, but here's the deal. If you force us to go through all of this hassle of getting an interpreter and now having to communicate one, you know, like this, then we're going to hold you in this prison cell for the evenings. But if you just do this using the local language, then we will take you home at night and you can sleep, you know, with in your own bed with your family.

[00:08:37] And I think what I wasn't prepared for was the fact that when you go into these situations, these people are trained professionals and I am not. A trained professional when it comes to like, like I wasn't trained, we're trained to do ministry. We're not trained to be interrogated. And that was what happened every single night.

[00:08:58] And so, you know, after a full day, like 12 hours of interrogation the second day they were like, okay, do you want to go home to your wife and kids? Well, yes, I do. Okay. Well then write down the name of every foreigner, you, you know, Oh, goodness. Okay. You know, like how comfortable do I feel doing this?

[00:09:17] Like, can I just like, do I know like tons, I know tons of foreigners, some that are in ministry, some that aren't. So if I just write, like if I flood all these and then the next day write down, you know, the names of any local workers that you've been connected with those type of things. It really just, it, it makes you question whether you're doing like, like whatever I'm, whatever decisions I'm making, it never feels like the right one.

[00:09:45] And, and I don't know if I'm doing this, if I'm hurting, like if I'm going to hurt anybody else, or if I'm you know, doing something that's going to hurt me. myself or my family. There was a lot of second guessing. And and I, you know, as I reflected on it later, I realized that a lot of that was intentional, right? Just introducing confusion, introducing a lot of mind games that that I wasn't prepared for.

[00:10:07] Jess: Wow. So like, can I ask, what did you do in those situations where they make you like write down names and all that kind of stuff? And you're just, I just can only imagine the kind of conflict that you're feeling at that time.

[00:10:19] Josh: Well, and keep in mind just so that you and everybody who's listening to this knows, like my wife and I went through a lot of counseling following this whole ordeal. So there, there was a lot, I mean, I still sometimes deal with, with shame related not necessarily to this particular thing, but, but to the whole incident in general.

[00:10:37] I did, I filled a page with every name that I could think of from foreigners that had been, you know, just secular English teachers for deck, you know, that I'd known for the whole decade. Like I, I decided that if I could just fill that page with a hundred names that that that would be the best course of action.

[00:10:57] And then when it came to local names, a lot of times, truth be told, I didn't know the actual name of the people I was working with. I just knew their like nickname that we always went by. And so I ended up just kind of. Putting a bunch of names of people that I knew, whether or not they were involved with any part of the ministry or not.

[00:11:17] And and the cool thing was we actually, there was another family that was going through this with us. And somehow we were able to connect with them after one of my interrogation sessions. And and he said, he told me later, he's like, listen, they've asked me to give names. I don't know what I should do.

[00:11:34] And I was like, Oh, I've, I've already given them. And I was able to tell him everything that I'd done. He's like, okay, good. Then those are the ones like now I know what I can list out and not list these others that I was thinking about. And so there was this cool kind of God moment where he allowed us to connect on some certain things that like I didn't realize that we would get to do and hopefully, hopefully keep from sharing more than we needed to.

[00:11:59] Jess: Yeah, for reals. So, you know, just kind of as you're going through that, and obviously, like you said, you're not a professional. I mean, what is, what is it that you, you think kind of really got you through 17 days. And, you know, I'm sure that there were like multiple different instances, but what kind of like helped you just keep going back to the, to the police station and kind of keep your head on straight and all those kinds of things throughout this whole ordeal?

[00:12:22] Josh: Yeah. Well, again, lots of counseling afterwards. So it's not like I was I, I, and, and that I think Jess would be a great point to make that you know, a part of what made me feel so shame, so shameful, like in, like in the aftermath of all of this is I feel like I grew up reading these stories of missionaries that when these type of adversities came, like they were like, I mean, it's almost like it made them stronger, that they stood taller, that they were able to like, just sit there and go, you do your worst.

[00:12:57] I, you know, I trust 100 percent in God. And maybe there are people like that. Maybe some of those stories are true. And I don't want to discount that, but what I've come to at least, think or hope or believe I'm not sure is that I think that everyone who's had one of those stories happen. I think at some point went through the valley of intense fear and intense, just like, God, I don't know what's going on because I know I did.

[00:13:26] So the example I give is, you know, I went through, let's say 12 hours of interrogation. And it's the mentally taxing linguistically. Just hard to have gone through that whole thing. Like your, your mind is still just swimming. And, and I can say with, with just amazement, not because I did this, but because it's like, it is definitely the work of, of the Holy Spirit that I was able to make it through that with, you know, with, with just, just make it through that.

[00:13:58] But then the moment they dropped me off at home. I, like my kids are asleep. It's late at night. It's like 11 PM at night and I walk through the door. My wife sees me. She doesn't even know if she's going to get to see me, right? Because they told her as I'm leaving that morning, " Say goodbye. You're never seeing your husband again."

[00:14:16] So I walk in at 11 o'clock. She's shocked to see me. And I just like. I, I'm, I'm not going to lie. I wept like a baby. I fell on the floor. I was a puddle on the floor of my own apartment. And the antithesis of what I remember reading about missionaries, like I'm the guy who's just scared. out of his mind that he's going to lose his wife and his kids and that I don't, I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:14:44] Not trained for this. What am I going to do? And, and it was, it wasn't until, and I can share a little bit more of this story later because they actually said to me. And during interrogations, you actually, that like, you actually want us to believe that you're a missionary and not a spy. And then they started asking me all about my, any missions work that I had done.

[00:15:03] And they say, you actually want us to believe that if that's true, you are the world's worst missionary. Like that, they literally said that to me. Like, if, if you want us to actually believe that you're a missionary, you are literally the world's worst missionary. Therefore you must be a spy. And so I have to sit there and go, " Yeah, I guess I am the world's worst missionary because I'm not a spy." You know, but I remember when I was back in the United States after all this had been finished and the Lord, like as I was going through Proverbs there's that verse in Proverbs that says the name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and they are safe.

[00:15:43] And, and, and I felt as I was reading that, that like for the first time. All over again. It felt like I was saying, you know, there's an enemy that is coming at this character, right? Whoever this is in this, in this proverb. And does he like stand in holy defiance? No. What does he do? He turns around and runs to the strong tower.

[00:16:06] That is the name of the Lord. And it's not necessarily something that I should be ashamed of. As a matter of fact, I, I need to be confident in the fact that I found my identity and I found my confidence not in anything that I could do because I was a mess, but only in the fact that God sustained me through probably one of the hardest things I'll ever have to go through.

[00:16:30] Matt: Now this experience I know it led to an unusual goal for you. So can you tell us about how, what that goal is and also how it fits into this experience that you had being detained and not knowing what the future held for you?

[00:16:45] Josh: Yeah. It's really, it's a challenge to describe what it feels like to be in a position where you don't know how long something will last.

[00:16:55] Right. If I tell you that you have to sit in a you know, in a, let's say a crunch position for 10 seconds, you can like, okay, I'm going to sit, you know, like I can do a crunch or I can do a, you know, a, let's say, what am I trying to think of like a plank position, right? You do that for 10 seconds. Like, okay, I can count down.

[00:17:14] But if I say do that plank until I say stop, and it could be 10 seconds, it could be a minute, right? Like not knowing how long that's going to last. Your, your mind, it's, it's so much harder for you. You could, you could last a lot longer if you just know how long you have to do it. Right. I don't know if that's a great analogy or not, but the idea being, Oh, it is.

[00:17:36] Yeah. The idea being if you had told me from the outset, okay, this is only going to last 17 days, 12 hour days, you're going to go home with your wife and eventually you're going to go back to the U S and everything will be fine. If you'd have told me that in the beginning, I would have just like, Oh man.

[00:17:52] Yeah, sure. I can do this. But when you're going through it and you don't know how long this is going to last, and you don't know if I'm going to get to see my kids, you know, later that evening I don't know this first day that they take me. Are they going to hold me for days, weeks, like months that that's happened before in this country?

[00:18:12] It's not like it's unprecedented. So, you know, for me, what starts happening is your mind begins to wander into this territory of Oh, okay. Well, what am I going to do if I'm stuck in that particular cell that I told you I walked by this whole, this other gentleman where there is no TV, there are no books, there's no devices, there's no nothing, there's nothing that you can take with you.

[00:18:37] So the only thing that I have is what I have in my mind, basically memories. And then of course, as faith goes, the word of God that has been stored in my heart. And I don't know for, for many people who maybe grew up in Sunday school or Juana's, you know, you, you've hopefully gone through and memorized a number of verses, but for some reason, after we hit high school, like that kind of just goes away for many of us.

[00:19:07] I mean, I know it was for me. So. It's almost embarrassing to say this, having been a Christian for most all my life and now being in ministry, you know, serving overseas and finding myself in this position and then doing inventory and realizing I can only come up with like 20 verses. And if like, if I'm here for weeks or months, that's not going to sustain me, right?

[00:19:35] That's, that's not good. And so I remember just that feeling of, I, I cannot believe that this is all that I have stored up, you know, and, and it, you know, we, we all know the verses, whether it's, Psalm one or other places that I, where have I hidden my heart that I might not sin against you. Right. And like, and even in Joshua one, eight, where it talks about just meditating on his word day and night.

[00:20:01] Well, how could you do that in a position like in a, in a jail cell if you don't actually have it hidden in your heart? And so that was when I decided, Hey, this is, This is something that if I get out of this, and it wasn't one of those, you know, Hey God, if you get me out of this, I will. It was just at that moment, I realized this.

[00:20:18] is important to me. And if, when I find myself in a position where I have the ability to really prioritize memorizing the Bible, I think that's something that I want to do. I hopefully I never find myself in this position again, and so far I haven't, but I want to have God's word hidden in my heart. I want to know it better than I thought I did.

[00:20:43] And I didn't know it as well as I thought I did.

[00:20:46] Matt: No. So, so then what was the goal as you came out? I mean, I realize there's like this general goal of hiding the word in your heart.

[00:20:54] Josh: Yeah. So then you know, my, my story is, is one of always consistently either falling short or, or doing foolish things. And so here's, here's the one where I do a foolish thing.

[00:21:04] I decided, wow, you know, I I think I, I, I remember I did a little test where I was like, how fast can I memorize the book of Philemon? And it was like, a day, you know, if you really put your mind to it, it's, it's only 25 or Filey. And I'm thinking of Jude file, Yeoman. Yeah. I think it's like 25 verses, 24, something like that.

[00:21:23] And so I was just like, okay, let's see how that goes. And it was really fast. And so I started doing the math. I was like, well, I could. Maybe do the whole New Testament in a couple years. Like this would be really cool. So I set myself this massive goal of like, all right, let's see if I can memorize the Bible word for word.

[00:21:42] The New Testament, right? Not the, not the Old Testament. That that's crazy, but, but at least just the New Testament. And at the time I was 38 and I said, I want to do it by the time I turned 40. So that was, that was the goal I set. I, you know, hopefully it doesn't come as a surprise to anybody that I didn't realize how hard that would be and had to revise that goal over time.

[00:22:05] But at this point I'm, you know, working on my 12th book memorized. And it's just one of those things where. It has now become just one of those goals that I honestly don't care how long it takes me to get there. I just know that I've enjoyed the journey so far and, and so that's, that's one of the things that I love doing.

[00:22:26] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like it's, it's more than just a goal, but it's become something of a spiritual practice. Yes. You know, has, it's, it's more than just something that you're reaching for, for, you know, credit or to be able to boast about. I mean, there's, there's some, there's spiritual benefits obviously that come with this.

[00:22:47] Josh: Most definitely. And I think, you know, when it comes to memorizing God's word, a lot of those benefits actually take time to mature and, and really be realized. Even just the idea that now as I'm going through, You know, first Peter, I'm trying to memorize first Peter and I get to you know, verses 24 and 25 of for the first chapter, first Peter, where he is quoting something from Isaiah and I'm like, wait a second, that sounds exactly like what James quotes in, in, in his letter as well.

[00:23:20] Like literally they're, they use different wording, but they quote the same one and, and almost seeing those cross references in the Bible without having to actually, you like look up the cross references. And I love that. Like, I, I love being able to discover things in God's word. You know, there, there's great things about going through a Bible study.

[00:23:40] I certainly love doing that myself, but that, that. Feeling of ownership or that feeling of discovery finding those things in God's word where it's like, wow, that phrase, that, that phrase sounds so familiar. I, I'm pretty sure Paul used that exact same phrase in Colossians, right? When he was talking, I wonder why, like, what is it that he's thinking when he's using that particular phrase?

[00:24:03] And, and those are the type of things that really it takes time to develop. But. Those are the benefits that I like a lot more than proclaiming some goal. And I was certainly not trying to get credit for how much I've memorized. Cause I, that's obviously kind of pointless.

[00:24:20] Matt: Yeah.

[00:24:21] Jess: I mean, I think for me, I remember, and I wasn't living in Japan.

[00:24:24] Right. So like, it's one of the countries where you have the least fear of. Of religious persecution in the world. But even me, I remember I was convicted at one point that like, Hey, like a time might come where we don't have access to the Bible, where we don't have access to the world. And at that point, the only place where I can access it is what I already have inside my own heart.

[00:24:43] And so I've totally gotten out of the habit of it, but I remember spending some time memorizing the Psalms and thinking like, Oh, this is what they're talking about when they say meditate day and night. Because when you're really. actively trying to memorize you just kind of like think about it all day because you're like I put all that effort into it this morning I don't want to forget it like two hours later and so you just kind of end up thinking about it and you remember it at nighttime right before you go to sleep and all that and so just hearing your story is really kind of motivating me like I really got to get back into that habit and start memorizing scripture again but what are some of your like practices to do it well.

[00:25:17] Cause like you said, it's really easy to memorize five or six verses today, but if I'm going to memorize five or six verses every day, I mean, I'm really going to forget those first five or six verses pretty quickly.

[00:25:27] Josh: Yeah. And you know, that's so I've just For my own benefit, I actually started a podcast where I interviewed a lot of people who had already done a lot of Bible memory.

[00:25:37] And part of my goal of doing that was just to try to figure out what are, what are you doing so that I could learn from it and, and like really just taking all of their techniques and creating my own, like the way that I do it. And, you know, there's a lot of great memory stuff out there. One of my favorite things is, is combining memory techniques with.

[00:25:58] Like really good habit stuff. Right. And so there's something called habit stacking. You know, a lot of people that I know that, that talk about Bible memory you know, it's, it's the same thing. It's like, oh yeah, I know that's a good thing. I probably should do it. And either I don't have a lot of time or I don't have a good memory.

[00:26:16] And the time thing is, is really a lot easier than you think, because, you know, there are a lot of habits that we have throughout the day. That we do on a regular basis and habit stacking is taking something that you want to do and stacking it on top of something that you already do. So an example for me is I've got a golden retriever dog and and that dog needs a walk every single morning.

[00:26:38] And so I wake up before my family gets up out of bed and I take her on a walk. It's a habit that we do every day. Every single day, and it takes us 15 minutes to go the circuit that we usually go. And during that 15 minutes, that is the time that I stack on my review, right? So I can say the book of second Timothy in about 12 minutes.

[00:26:58] So it takes me that circuit right there. Right now I'm going through first Peter and so I can get through, I can review chapter one, and then I can do, let's say about 10 to 12 verses of chapter two. And that's the time that I spend doing that. It's, it's when your hands are busy. But your mind is not.

[00:27:16] So whether that's washing the dishes or driving or something like that, there are a lot of times, especially when you're living overseas where you're doing some, like, you've got to do some administrative thing. Like even just today I was, I'm, I'm living still in, in a different part of Asia and I was sitting in immigration, you know, and I could scroll on my phone, play a game.

[00:27:38] Or I could use that time to just go over some of the verses that I've, I've memorized and it's, it's really being intentional about that time and and then finding ways where you can stack onto current habits. Does that make sense, Jess?

[00:27:51] Jess: Yeah, no, that's so good. I love how like practical. That is, and how really anyone can do it.

[00:27:56] You don't have to be this like super Christian, like preacher, know the Bible super well already, right? You can just kind of add it on something small and bite sized to your everyday. So I really love how practical that is. Yeah,

[00:28:09] Josh: definitely.

[00:28:10] Matt: Yeah. What are some of the benefits that you feel like You've experienced in your own life as a result of it, or that you've heard other people have in because obviously you're part of now a community of people that are doing this, this is part of their lifestyle.

[00:28:27] So what are some of the things that you're hearing common denominators, maybe common threads of benefits that people experience? Yeah,

[00:28:34] Josh: I mean, I think the most. Common benefit is really a deeper connection with the voice of God. You know, we, we tend to underestimate just what it means to have what I would call the language of scripture and understanding that, that voice.

[00:28:51] You know, the Bible talks about the, the, the sheep know the shepherd's voice. Well, how do you think they know that voice? They know it by listening to it constantly. And you know, we have this tendency, at least in the Western world, I would say, to think of time in the word as chronological. Quiet time, first of all, it's very quiet and it's gotta be in a chair, you know, in a corner in the dark space for like five, 10 minutes.

[00:29:16] If you're really holy, maybe you've got 20 to 30 minutes, right? And I've begun to kind of like think, wow, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be that way. Like for me, my favorite times of just really communion with the Lord and communion with his word and hearing him speak to me. I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but a lot of times I've, I've.

[00:29:38] You know, wanted to hear God's voice, you know, or to have him answer me in something. And sometimes we're expecting some voice from the clouds to say something. A lot of times God uses scripture to speak to us. That is his word, his gift to us. And when I am reciting scripture to myself, not only am I allowing him to speak to me in that way, but I'm also opening myself up to hearing things that maybe I wasn't aware of before, like even as I was talking about reading over Proverbs again, and suddenly, wow, it takes on this new meaning to me that I, that I hadn't thought of before.

[00:30:16] So like those kind of, I guess, just that intimacy with the voice of God, with, with, with God's word that he has gifted us is probably one of the greatest benefits. And, you know, one of the things that You could be memorizing for the rest of your life, or you could be digging into God's Word, just studying for the rest of your life, and we're never going to get to the bottom of it.

[00:30:38] So, you know, if, if that's just a, a constant source of wisdom for us and even a source of comfort, then I don't see, Why you wouldn't want to do it. I heard one guy, I'll say this real quick. I heard one guy say it to me like this. He's like, if you knew if you could go back in time and I could tell you in the 1980s, Hey, go buy Amazon stock when it comes out, or, you know, like go buy Google stock.

[00:31:02] Cause trust me, it's like, you're the, it's gonna blow up. It's like, that's the way that I see scripture memory. It's like, if I can, I can promise you that if you invest in this now, It will reap amazing benefits that you couldn't believe later, but you just, you just got to invest. You just got to go and do it.

[00:31:20] That's great. Are

[00:31:21] Matt: there any tools that you've found? Obviously there's, there was possibly apps or other resources that you can maybe share with our, our listeners that could help if they're wanting to. Absolutely.

[00:31:35] Josh: I mean, there are a lot of different manual and digital ways that you can use to really memorize more of God's word.

[00:31:42] There's some, there's one of my favorite apps is one called the Bible memory app, like really creative name, the Bible memory app. There's one called verse locker and others, but you could really just use three by five cards or a notebook to track a lot of this stuff. But there's also a lot of great.

[00:31:58] Like there's a memory, there's a whole memory world, like the secular memory world where people are memorizing decks of cards, right? Or I heard about somebody who memorized one of the Harry Potter books and you could add, you could tell them a page, a line, and a number of, you know, the word on that line.

[00:32:15] And they could tell you that. And it's, Unbelievable. Right. It's like, it's fascinating. And at the same time, it's like, but you memorized that, like you're memorizing decks of cards really? And, and that's where like, even the name of the podcast that I eventually started doing was called memorize what matters.

[00:32:35] Cause like that, that was the whole thing that I was in my mind. I'm like, I don't want to spend my time memorizing just random lyrics of songs or, or things that we do tend to passively memorize. I want to memorize what matters and, and be intentional about that. And so, you know, one of the things that I've done as I, as, as I've really talked with a lot of these different people is is getting an understanding of what kind of techniques and methods are out there and understanding that for most of us, we think that memorizing.

[00:33:04] God's word. And Jess, I don't know, Matt, maybe this is you too as well, means just repeating it a hundred times over and over until you just literally cannot not remember it. Right. We call that rote repetition. And for some reason that's kind of our default way of memorizing, but there are so many creative ways.

[00:33:22] God has designed our brain. In a very interesting way such that we have spatial awareness. I can walk through my childhood home and I can tell you exactly where my window and bed were when I was doing that. But I can forget where I put my keys yesterday, right? Like there, but, but there are different ways that we can take advantage of that.

[00:33:42] And and that's where I decided, like, I actually recently wrote a book, like taking all of these ideas and saying, okay, how can we really take advantage of these these memory techniques for biblical, like applying it to the Bible and memorizing scriptures opposed to memorizing decks of cards or memorizing, you know, the Harry Potter book.

[00:34:04] Like, how can we take this and apply it to memorizing what matters? And that's, what's been really fun for me.

[00:34:10] Jess: I love the title of your podcast, Memorize What Matters. That's so cool. Because I mean, if you think about it, like, you know, the, like the God, the word is God. Right. And then like by memorizing, it's like, you're like literally building that temple of the Lord, like in your own heart.

[00:34:24] Right. And so to really kind of think of it in terms of that eternal perspective, I think that's such a. Great way to give something that is, like you said, I mean, I do like rote memorization. That's what I've always done. Right. But to kind of give it more life. Right. And to kind of consider it more like, no, this is like a really dynamic thing that takes use of the way the Lord has created you and your brain and the way that your mind functions and stuff and to really kind of consider all of that as well.

[00:34:52] I think that makes it so much more engaging. Then just like memorizing John 3 16. Absolutely.

[00:34:58] Josh: And it's one of those things that if, if somebody is listening to this, whether they want to go into ministry or whether they're just going to be in their job or whatever role they have back in their home country, like this, isn't like getting a seminary degree where it's, it's not necessarily accessible to everybody.

[00:35:15] This is something that we can all do. And it benefits. All of us, whether we are, whether we think of ourselves as in ministry or whether we're going overseas. And especially I think if we're going overseas and representing the Lord in another country, in another culture, in another context.

[00:35:32] Jess: And imagine like if you had like a community of people who, who memorized together and like one day we really didn't have access to the word.

[00:35:39] Well, like I didn't memorize Matthew, but you did. And I memorized. First Timothy. So like, we can kind of like share and all together, like as a community, it's almost like you have the Bible together. Right. So, I mean, I think there's just so many different ways it brings the body of Christ together.

[00:35:52] Absolutely. That's really cool.

[00:35:53] Matt: Yeah. So Josh, I know that you ended up having to leave the country, that you talked about at the beginning of this conversation. What does your ministry look like now?

[00:36:04] Josh: And so part of what I get to do, I run my own business and and that is actually what funds us. So I pay my own salary now.

[00:36:11] I pay the salary of a couple of employees and contractors that you know, if as much as I can, I'm using people that are workers on the field or that are locals that I can help support by doing that. But then what I love being able to do is. Training people into what I call creative funding mindset.

[00:36:29] So not everybody can necessarily start a business. Not everybody can actually run a business, but there are ways, especially for third world missions, where we've got people coming from different parts of Asia here that their, their home churches can barely afford. to pay their pastor, much less to send somebody.

[00:36:49] And yet they have people who are so passionate to be sent. So then what does that mean for them? How can they find creative funding? And so that's a lot of what I've been trying to help with using the expertise that God's given me. I do a lot of media, YouTube podcasts, websites, stuff like that.

[00:37:08] That's, that's what my business does. And Yeah, I did that. I didn't your question, Matt.

[00:37:14] Matt: No, that's, that's great. That's wonderful. I do want to give an opportunity for you to share some of the websites. We will put these in the show notes, but any resources that you have out there as it relates to Bible memory or even some, some of these business areas as well.

[00:37:30] Josh: So, yeah, like I, I have a media company, it runs a number of different brands, both Secular and, you know, ministry related, but the, the one having to do with Bible memory is called Bible memory goal. So you can go to Bible memory goal. com. I have a new book coming out, like I said, about memorizing the Bible.

[00:37:46] And all that has is if you just go to memorize what matters. com and that'll redirect you to where that is on, on Amazon. But also that's the name of the podcast that I do. And the cool thing is you know, We have like, there's a free community. So it's like a closed social media site where thousands of people from around the world who enjoy memorizing the Bible are able to come together and then share that, like ask questions, but also, you know, I think it's really cool.

[00:38:13] One of the things I love doing is, is celebrating wins. And it really feels awkward. Like Jess, if I were to meet you at church one day and I'd be like, Hey Jess, guess what? I just finished second, you know, first Peter, can I say it to you? It's like, It's just awkward. It's really weird. But at the same time, like, I think there's value in celebrating that.

[00:38:33] And so having a community of people to where that isn't awkward. You, you post a video of your, of you saying, you know, first Timothy, or even that we've got people that just memorize individual verses. So I don't want you to think that, you know, you have to memorize. extended passages for it to be valuable, but like even just individual verses and being able to say, Hey, I had, this is what I wanted to do.

[00:38:55] I accomplished it and I'm really excited about it. And, and just have a bunch of people that go, yeah, we're excited for you.

[00:39:01] Matt: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. It's, it's just your story has been amazing. Challenging I think and I hope people explore how they might even consider in you know Putting this into their life and benefiting from it as well both spiritually and I'm sure also there's probably mental benefits Yeah, well when you stretch the fibers of your brain in this way Which is probably why this is popular in the secular world as well but for us There's many more benefits, spiritual benefits in particular, I can think of with this.

[00:39:35] So before we go, anything you've been reading or listening to or podcasts you've been enjoying that you want to share with our listeners?

[00:39:43] Josh: Well, one of the podcasts that my wife got me on that I've really enjoyed is one called Bema. I don't know if you've ever heard of that before. It's B E M A. It's just a great kind of walking through the Bible through really a Jewish cultural perspective.

[00:39:57] And a lot of really, you know, Interesting insights that, that are gleaned through going through that. So, I mean, they've got a number of seasons, but even just going back to the very beginning as they go to Genesis has been really fascinating. And then the, the geek in me, I'm like, I just finished a book on George Washington recently on the years between the end of the revolutionary war and when he actually took his presidency that I thought was really fascinating.

[00:40:19] I think it's Yeah, it's, I, I, I love seeing. People in history that we venerate and, and see as like these amazing people, and then getting to see a little bit behind the scenes and going, Oh yeah, they weren't perfect. Right. And, and like, I, I think that's true, whether it's a secular, you know, George Washington, or even a lot of the people that we that we look up to in the Christian world.

[00:40:48] And, and, you know, it's just this recognition that we're all, we're all a little. fallen, a lot fallen. And and it's, and it's okay to realize that.

[00:40:59] Jess: Whenever I hear stories of missionaries who are just abruptly pulled straight out of their ministries, I always kind of wonder what happened to the people they left behind.

[00:41:07] And I'm sure a lot of those stories are ones that we and that worker will get to hear up in heaven. But if you'd like to hear a little bit of a preview of that, of what happened in the wake of Josh leaving, of what happened to one of the people that he was ministering to, then check out our bonus episode.

[00:41:26] Matt: Yes. Thanks, Jess. Also, I want to mention this Occurrence that josh and his family face is actually quite common, not necessarily getting detained, but having to leave the country that you believe God has called you toward, where you have learned language, where you've made friends and built relationships.

[00:41:42] Many times, out of your control, you have to leave, you have to go somewhere else. And so we've actually compiled a book of stories called items may have shifted that tell stories of people that this has happened to missionaries that have had to been rerouted in the course of their ministry and then how God planted them somewhere else and they became fruitful in that new area of ministry.

[00:42:02] So there'll be a link to that book in our show notes. It's free on our website. And also you can get it on Kindle and in paperback on Amazon.

[00:42:10] Jess: Thanks for following us on this episode Podcast. Our goal is to make missions accessible to show that it's not just reserved for elite super Christians. If you want to be involved, just go to pioneers.

[00:42:22] org slash start and answer a few questions. We have a team who would love to help you discern your calling and what your next steps might be.

[00:42:29] Matt: At Pioneers, we love to partner with local churches and send teams to people groups with little or no access to the gospel. Keep up with what God is doing by following us on Instagram, Facebook, All at Pioneers USA, one word, or visit pioneers.

[00:42:44] org. Thanks for listening.

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