Not on Board

[00:00:00] Steve: So often we think in terms of volunteers, but God isn't restricted to volunteers to accomplish his sovereign plan. This is the

[00:00:10] Matt: Relentless Pursuit podcast, where we hear stories from cross cultural workers on what it's really like to be a missionary. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:00:18] Jess: Today, we've got a special episode with our president.

[00:00:22] Matt: We have not yet had Steve on the podcast, so this is exciting. Steve recently released a book about Jonah. The book is called Not On Board, and it's a very brief book, only about 100 pages long, but it explores the themes in Jonah. in the book of Jonah that maybe some of us have overlooked in the course of our reading of that book.

[00:00:44] And so we're going to have him talk about what led him to write this book, what some of the learnings are that he took away from it, and even some ways in which we can cultivate compassion in our lives through the story of Jonah. So looking forward to you meeting Steve and hearing his story.

[00:01:02] Jess: So of course, at Pioneers, our, one of our primary functions is to mobilize, equip, and to send missionaries.

[00:01:09] And part of that function includes interviewing missionaries, right? And some of the first things that we ask people when they come through our doors is, what is your walk with Jesus like? But also Do you want to become a missionary and do you have a heart for people, right? And so if we got someone like, say, for example, Jonah that came in through our doors and we asked him about his missionary calling, and then he told us, no, I don't want to become a missionary.

[00:01:32] And I hate this mission calling I have, and I hate the people that God is calling me to, and I want them to die, right? If someone came in like that, we could not end that interview. Quickly enough, right? And so when I heard that you are actually using the character of Jonah, using his story to write a book about missions, it definitely got me thinking like, Oh, wow, that's not really, I think the first thing that would pop into my mind is like the model for missionaries and for missions.

[00:01:58] And so I would love to just hear how it is that you settled on Jonah to write this book about.

[00:02:04] Steve: You've got a good point there. And so often we think in terms of volunteers, God isn't restricted to volunteers to accomplish His sovereign plan. And I think that's one of the themes that comes through is God's relentless pursuit, His compassionate pursuit of the lost.

[00:02:24] And He uses all kinds of unlikely instruments, including Jonah. So yeah, if someone knocked on our door and said, I don't want to be a missionary, but can you use me? All right. I think, the thought that goes through my mind are you willing to be on a journey where God is taking you into his heart of compassion?

[00:02:44] And if so, then let's take the next step. And this is a long journey as it was in Jonah's case. And I think each one of us just starts out in a different position and God takes us from where we're at and is going to take us to the next level.

[00:02:58] Jess: Yeah. So is that kind of what you're thinking as you're trying to decide, okay, I'm going to. What was the impetus for using Jonah, though, for to illustrate those things?

[00:03:07] Steve: In my mind, as I began appreciating this 480, this 980 words in the original Hebrew little book, I started realizing it packs the big picture of God's plan and our participation in it into a very dense, powerful little package.

[00:03:29] And as I got deeper in it, I thought, you know what? This isn't just a message for the people who lived 750 years before Jesus. This is a message for the church today. And there are so many people today God loving people in the ranks of our good churches all across the country who need their lives, need our eyes lifted to the big picture of a world in need, of a heart of God that is just oozing compassion for people who are hurtling toward judgment.

[00:04:02] So I think I came at it a little more from the angle of my own time in God's word and recognizing here was a treasure. He was a nuclear power, little message that God had for Israel that is also relevant for the church today.

[00:04:18] Matt: Yeah. And I want to go back to what you said, Jess, because I do suspect that even if there are people who come with a desire to become a missionary. They may have compassion for the people that they're going to. And then once they get there, they might change their mind. And they might end up becoming a little bit more like Jonah, and wish they weren't there, and wish that God had sent them somewhere else. So I think all of us, end up where he's at, whether we start there, like Steve said, or whether we end up there later on in the context of ministry, where you lose your sense of compassion for the people to whom he's called you.

[00:04:54] But that's, it's a great thought experiment to think about someone coming in the doors of pioneers with that.

[00:04:59] Steve: That is such a good point. And having lived cross culturally myself, I experienced that, most people that I know who launch out into cross cultural ministry experience that. We have a tendency to romanticize mission involvement and Jonah, Jonah didn't romanticize it at all, but yeah and I think over time, God takes us to deeper levels of understanding what compassion is and what it's based on.

[00:05:25] Matt: This is a familiar story to us, though, I think, which. Because it's similar to David and Goliath, Noah and the Ark these different, very familiar stories from the Old Testament. I think there's the curse of knowledge sometimes, where a book like what you've written helps reorient us back to the message of the story from a different angle.

[00:05:47] Because I think there's such an odd story, with a fish that eats a human being and then vomits them out. And the calling of Jonah and the response, it just doesn't, it just doesn't sound like a typical story. And so we focus on those foreign aspects of it and maybe probably miss out on some of the messages that I think you bring out in this book.

[00:06:09] Steve: Focusing on the fish would be a little bit like focusing on David's slingshot or obsessing over the ark as opposed to. The battle, the big picture of God's power and intentions for Israel and for Noah and his family and for humankind. So yeah, the Book of Jonah has powerful themes in it.

[00:06:37] It's really almost a hinge of history because in my mind, it's looking back on hundreds and hundreds. of years of the early stages of the history of God's redemptive plan and Israel's participation in it, and their failure to stay mission true in many respects, and then looking forward prophetically to ultimately the perfect Jonah who is to come and the fulfillment of God's vision mission.

[00:07:08] So I just love that picture of here's a hinge and these different eras of history and the elements, the key elements that we needed to, know are in there. God's sovereignty, who He is, His plan, His compassion, His saving power, His determination to use us in the process and not just do it Himself, and His His intention to fulfill the plan come what may.

[00:07:35] Matt: I think that the cultural context of Jonah can feel a little foreign to us, living in our modern 21st century world. What are some of the parallels that you see between Jonah's world and our world as you read the book?

[00:07:49] Steve: Yeah, technologically, things obviously were a lot different. But the bottom line is that the human heart hasn't changed at all, and God's heart hasn't changed.

[00:08:00] So the parallels that come to my mind is, it was a time for God's people, for Israel, of relative prosperity. There've been a lot of issues, but people were feeling pretty self contained, self absorbed primarily interested in their own comfort and safety. They had gone adrift w theologically. And they were not at all concerned about fulfilling their God given mission to be a blessing to the surrounding nations. In fact, they had hearts that discriminated against their neighbors. And it just looked like a lost cause in a way. And, One of my joys in this little book is that Jonah doesn't tell the story, he is the story.

[00:08:45] And in some ways he personifies God's people who have gone adrift in terms of their mission.

[00:08:52] Jess: It's so interesting what you say about that, and I think it ties back to what you were saying a minute ago about how He's got like this, attitude that maybe a lot of us also, when we're on the mission field, we find ourselves like having a similar attitude towards the people that we're called to serve.

[00:09:10] And how also similarly, the story isn't just about Nineveh and what God is doing in Nineveh, but it's about the story of what God is doing in Jonah's life. And I feel like a lot of our missionaries often share about how I was called to go and, do that. do this work overseas, but actually God ended up doing a whole huge work in my heart as well.

[00:09:30] And so I think you touch on that a little bit at the book, but expound on those ideas of what the Lord was doing in Jonah himself. Why is the story about him?

[00:09:37] Steve: It's so true. Jonah wasn't just being used as a tool by God. God loved the Ninevites, as you point out. But he also had an overflowing love for Jonah, his instrument, and his participation in that journey to the nations, so to speak, was like being laid on the operating table, in a way, and having some heart surgery.

[00:10:02] And if you look at that from a positive, through a positive lens, I really believe that participating in the big picture of God's plan for the world in our generation is the biggest blessing, but it can be a painful process. There are sacrifices to be made. But ultimately as we obey, we become, whether it's going overseas or participating, at home in, in other ways, we become the primary beneficiaries of our own obedience and response to God's call.

[00:10:35] And it's not just about, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to make some sacrifices out of a presumed compassion for somebody. Africa or Middle East or Asia. There is a win to this whole scenario. There are rewards, immense rewards in the process.

[00:10:52] Jess: That's such a good line that we are the primary beneficiaries to our own obedience. I think that's not usually. how we look at obedience necessarily, but to think of it as there's so much to gain because we usually think obedience means sacrifice, laying down my life, being a Roman to the Romans and all these kinds of things, right? But this is it's a little bit of a different angle that you bring up.

[00:11:17] Steve: Yeah, it really is. But even that default perception that I think many of us have suggests that we're a bit like Jonah. It's about us and altruistically, I'm going to make sacrifices, pride can take a lot of rather deceptive forms in our lives.

[00:11:38] Jess: Absolutely.

[00:11:39] Matt: Yeah. I think most Christians are familiar with the parallels between Jesus and Jonah, and then even like we were getting into the applications between Jonah and our own lives, Jesus was in the grave for three days.

[00:11:54] Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days. One of the coolest things I think I noticed in the book was this parallel that you Identify between Jonah and another New Testament character. And it was the first time I'd ever seen that noted. I wonder if you're willing to peel back that a little bit.

[00:12:10] Now readers I do want them to still get the book, but this is a teaser into the, into a different part of the the parallel idea than just the one between Jonah and Jesus, which we're all familiar with.

[00:12:23] Steve: Yeah, Matt, you say we're all familiar with it, but let me review a little bit more of it. In addition to the three days in Jesus case, he did go, he went the ultimate distance, didn't he? From heaven to earth. He went to a city, he went to Jerusalem, the heart of Israel. He preached, he spent the three days in a sense, in the belly of the fish and in death and she'll, he had gone outside the city, not to watch for its destruction, but to pay the price for its salvation.

[00:12:59] He rose from the dead. Jonah came out. So you're right, but then, a number of years ago I was on the coast of the Mediterranean. in a seaside town called Joppa. And as I was there at the presumed place where Simon the Tanner's house was, looking out over the Mediterranean, the thought occurred to me, you know what else happened here?

[00:13:22] This is where Jonah hired a ship and headed the opposite direction. And then 800 years later, in virtually the same spot, somewhere there in the vicinity. Peter is in prayer on the roof of a house, and he has a vision, and the vision is God telling him to do something he just couldn't imagine doing. And, in the vision, he has the sheet lowered down with all kinds of uneatable animals.

[00:13:46] On it, unclean things. And he's no Lord. And God says, don't call unclean that which I've made clean. And then Jonah's confused and wondering what this means. And God says, you're gonna, some messengers are gonna show up. And sure enough, a delegation shows up. And Peter obliges and goes up the coast to another city, a Roman city this time, not an Assyrian city, but it's a city representing the oppressors, and he's invited into the home of A centurion, dozens and dozens of people are there waiting and ready.

[00:14:22] Having been prepared, the pagans again have been prepared by the Spirit of God for the arrival of the messenger who preaches the message. And there's just a massive revival in that household. And then this episode of Peter as a third Jonah, in a sense, if you assume Jesus is the perfect central Jonah, is that it opens the door to the entire Gentile world.

[00:14:46] And this is another history, another hinge of history, another totally history changing event. And you and I and every single other believer in the world today, every single follower of Jesus, I believe, can trace our spiritual lineage to the fact that Peter responded, said yes, and he went up the coast and the door of salvation was opened to the entire world without having to become Jewish to do it.

[00:15:14] Now, even Jewish believers today, I would say, genealogically can trace their spiritual roots to many Gentiles who've been faithful with the gospel. So that's the backdrop to my little illustration there.

[00:15:25] Jess: So I know obedience is like one big theme, obedience to Jonah, regardless of whether he wanted or not, and Peter's obedience here. I think compassion is another big theme that you talk about in your book. Share a little bit about that, why that's important to share.

[00:15:41] Steve: I think that Compassion is one of God's attributes that's under appreciated, under recognized, and under desired. Human nature would lend itself to wanting to be powerful, wanting to know as much as we can know, probably for ulterior motives.

[00:16:06] But how much do we naturally want to have God's compassion? And compassion is representative of a significant part of what we call love, God's love. The two go together. So yeah how many of us pray earnestly and somewhat routinely for compassionate postures and compassionate hearts? I think you've raised a really good question.

[00:16:35] Matt: Some people seem to have it more naturally than others. And it seems to be just sometimes the way we're wired. At the same time, we're called to have it. We're called to reflect Jesus in our compassion to others, regardless of whether we're inclined toward it or not. I think one question I have is like, how do you cultivate it in your heart?

[00:16:56] Because obviously there are practices, there are ways, in addition to what you do, noted praying that God would give us compassion. My guess is there's also practices and things that we can do that will cause us to have more compassion toward those who need it.

[00:17:12] Steve: I think one element is knowing, is familiarity.

[00:17:17] It's very hard to be compassionate for People you don't know. Now, you can do it in theory, but you know how they say, it's hard to be compassionate for millions of people, but it's easier to be compassionate for an individual that you know from that population or that group. So that would suggest That we pursue information and pursue relationships, even multiculturally or cross-culturally within our own neighborhoods or even within our own culture.

[00:17:52] Do we know our neighbor and I think rather than trying to transport ourselves, to rapidly to some much more mature. Experience or part of the journey. Again, it's a matter of taking the next step. Do we actually know our neighbor? Have we talked routinely? And as it relates to least reach peoples around the world, is there a people group that's on our heart?

[00:18:14] Do we know much about them? Do we know anybody from that people group and start exercising compassion in the micro before expecting to have it in the macro?

[00:18:26] Matt: Yeah, that's good.

[00:18:27] Steve: Another idea, probably, Matt, is to pray scripture, like my wife Arlene prays Psalm 67, and just puts people's name, people's names in there, or the names of people groups in there, that God will bless them and make himself known to them.

[00:18:45] Another quick thought that comes to mind is, identifying who are our enemies. And I think that's hard for us in the West to even perceive of anybody as being our enemies, or as another society as being our enemy. And then take it the next step, having tried to identify somebody or some group in that category, and say, am I praying for them? Jesus said, pray for your enemies. That's a pretty big faith stretcher.

[00:19:11] Matt: We're living in a culture which is becoming more and more tribalized and polarized, so we might not have enemies in the same way that they did in ancient times that were bloodthirsty and ready to kill them and their families, but there's still this sense of otherness that we place on people that we don't agree with or that are different from us culturally or politically or denominationally, so there's plenty of opportunities for that, even though we don't, we're not under the same threats that Jonah was from the Ninevites, I think.

[00:19:44] Steve: We're not feeling militarily threatened, but there are all kinds of barriers, that represent differentness or distinctions or even animosity.

[00:19:53] Jess: Yeah. I think when you think of just society in general, especially here in the U S there's definitely, you might not think of, like you said, military threats. And I think in your book, you said something about mountains of severed heads and that sort of thing. But in terms of like people that you look down on in terms of people that you really just don't think, understand the world well, or that you could never get along with.

[00:20:17] I'm sure there are so many people, I included, that we could just start listing people really easily. And it's really, I love that challenge, that very practical challenge you give of are you praying for those people? Are you praying for the individuals that you know that are a part of that group as much as you disagree with them?

[00:20:34] That's, I think, such a practical, real way to really apply some of these lessons in our own lives.

[00:20:40] Matt: Love it. So true. You highlighted in the book a lot of the historical information that we have about just how evil and violent the people of Nineveh were. I know it shows us that just no matter how sinful a culture is, how violent they are, that they can be reached with the gospel, and they can repent.

[00:20:58] and they, there's hope for them. And in some ways, this is really similar to what you saw growing up as a child among the Sawi headhunters in what is now Indonesia. This whole tribe essentially came to faith and a church was planted there. Did you see parallels between maybe the people of Nineveh and The s as you were reflecting on this book?

[00:21:25] Steve: Good question. I actually did, and we're aware or need to be aware of those differences that we just mentioned here in our own society, but my observation, having traveled and lived. around the world is that those those barriers exist all over the place. It kind of part of human nature.

[00:21:46] Yeah, Matt, among the Sawi, growing up there as a kid for my first 15 years, I witnessed battles, in our front yard of people trying to kill each other. And, it was either man against man, or it was clan against clan within a village, or it was one village against the neighboring village, or it was the Sawi tribe against the Asmat, or the Atahuaym, or the Kaigar, or the Auyu, the neighboring tribes.

[00:22:20] But I had that wonderful joy I've seen the power of God unleashed through the gospel, through the testimony of my parents, and the phenomenal transformation in the outlook and the behavior and the relationships of the Sawi people with their neighbors, to the point where, ultimately, not only did a majority of them, as far as we could tell, come to saving faith in relationship with the Lord Jesus.

[00:22:56] But they formed an alliance with the four tribes that they previously had been trying to eliminate, the purpose of which would be to take the gospel message to yet other hidden tribes in the jungle who had not yet heard it. And I think this is one reason that we in Pioneers and in the church are so committed to the Great Commission is that it is today's manifestation of the overwhelming love of God for all the nations of the world without exception.

[00:23:41] And my own experience among the Sawi growing up there and then later with another much larger people group are just two among thousands and thousands of trophies of God's grace that we're going to enjoy for eternity.

[00:23:55] Jess: Now we're looking on hindsight at, your story and the story of your parents as missionaries amongst the Sawi and just seeing the incredible work that the Lord has done.

[00:24:04] But I'm sure there were moments in the jungle as you're like watching them fight each other and you're trying to explain the gospel and it like literally just doesn't make sense to them in the way that it makes sense to us that it could be so easy to give in to hopelessness to feel like this is like never gonna.

[00:24:20] Make it anywhere. Is the Lord really going to do anything? And I'm sure it doesn't even have to be such like a big, picture, like this whole village and this whole people group. I'm sure there are some people listening right now who feel that way about a family member or a neighbor or a friend, or I've really been doing everything I can to try and, reach this person with the gospel or to share the love of Jesus.

[00:24:39] And just like nothing is happening. What would be like your encouragement to someone to really, whether they're in the middle of a village or whether it's just with their neighbor of how to like really continue to press into compassion and to love and care for that person.

[00:24:53] Steve: Let me say that even among the Sawi, what you're saying was very true. And initially it did seem hopeless. And there's a whole book written on that story that wrote the book, Peace Child, to share how initially the Sawi people thought Judas was the hero of the story because they idealized treachery and so forth. Who could have imagined? a scenario less likely to lead to a breakthrough for the gospel.

[00:25:22] But it did happen, and y'all won't ruin the story for people, but they can get a hold of the book, Peace Child, or watch our little video, Never the Same, and enjoy that. To your question about persevering in hope, I think of that lame man's friends who persevered and lowered him down through the roof, in front of Jesus, and Out there in the jungle as a kid, one of our regular family prayer requests was for my uncle Dave.

[00:25:49] And he wouldn't mind me saying this, even if he were still alive, but he's with the Lord now. And he was an undercover cop. He lived a hard life. He knew the gospel, but hadn't responded to it. And as we prayed, and as my parents persevered and gentle, communication of God's care and love. In his mid sixties, he made a dramatic turn and response to the Lord Jesus and the message of the gospel.

[00:26:21] And he was so overcome by the love of God and the presence of God's power in his life. He packed up his bags and he moved to Jerusalem because he wanted to be in Jerusalem when the Lord returned. And he had a powerful ministry there for years with travelers coming through from all the nations, through, through the old city of Jerusalem.

[00:26:40] So anyway, for me personally, Jess, that's been one example among others of persevering prayer and faith on behalf of people we love. And never assuming at any point in the journey that person is beyond the reach of Christ's love and of the gospel.

[00:27:03] Matt: I want to ask a question that's a little removed from the book, but it might draw on your experience as a missionary.

[00:27:09] How have you seen people in other cultures respond to the story of Jonah? You mentioned how the Sawi responded to the story of Jonah. Jesus and Judas, which was an unexpected way of approaching that. And then, what about Jonah? Have you seen anywhere that cultures have heard this story and maybe seen things in it that we don't see in it as postmodern, Western people?

[00:27:35] Steve: That is a really thought provoking question, and I intend to be much more alert. And looking for and asking for examples of that. However, what does come to mind is one of our own missionaries. She's quite elderly, but boy, does she have energy and passion. And she packed up in her 60s, I think if not later, and headed off to a Muslim country and is teaching English there.

[00:28:01] She'd be in her mid to upper 70s, I think, at least now. And she shared the Jonah story with her large class of Muslim students, and they loved it, and then she said, let's reenact it. So they got near a swimming pool, and they created a big cardboard ship, and then they threw one of their own classmates overboard into the pool.

[00:28:27] And this whole class of non believers, non Christians were just transfixed with the whole thing, especially as they were re enacting it, and they were having such a good time, but then they started talking about God's compassion for people and what is God like. And then they started talking about how they didn't really like Christians and why and it almost was a reverse scenario where through the story of Jonah, they were realizing that they look down on Christians.

[00:29:00] And maybe they needed to be more friendly toward Christians and listen to what they had to say. And it was just so cool to hear. Anita share this story, and here's somebody in her seventies a widow who decided to make the most of what was left of her life and just took the plunge, to use that expression and go willingly, to a distant culture.

[00:29:24] And I just love that example. It's so inspiring to me.

[00:29:27] Jess: What an awesome, like story of how people responded. So like humbly to the story of Jonah, I feel like. As a kid, I always read that story and I was like, Jonah, he needs to get his act together. I'm not like him. I'm not as bad as he is. So that's amazing that this group of students, the first time they hear that they responded with compassion. And I'm sure that is such an opportunity for open doors for conversations too. So that's really

[00:29:53] Steve: cool. And it's a great example of how the narratives of scripture and the many stories are actually wonderful door openers for going deeper with people.

[00:30:01] Matt: Yeah thanks so much for joining us, Steve, and giving us a little sneak peek into your book. I hope it whets people's appetite enough so that they go out and get a copy. It's not a long book. I think you can easily read it through in a few hours, and it's got a lot of great reflection content in it for us as we consider the future.

[00:30:21] Our lives in light of the needs, the global needs, the local needs, all that. Before we go, is there anything you've been reading or listening to or watching lately that's been inspiring or challenging you?

[00:30:34] Steve: I'm reflecting in this season on Unhurried. Life and leadership in our fast paced society and world.

[00:30:46] I think I think this is becoming more and more important. I read a book recently, Slow Productivity, The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout. And another one called 4, 000 weeks, because apparently, the typical lifespan involves 4, 000 weeks. And how do we spend those weeks? And it's not by rushing through them, particularly and biblically, I'm just reminded, Matt, that So often in the scriptures and in life, God's best gifts come as a result of seasons spent reflecting and slowing down and hearing from God.

[00:31:32] And, now that I mentioned this and you asked the question, there may be some overlap with Jonah too. Even those three days in the fish, he had some time to reflect on life. So yeah, that's, I think that's an area Where what does it look like to have significant responsibility and a lot of demands on life, family, and otherwise, your profession, but live at a pace where we still hear from God and and we're we're focusing on the quality of life, not just the quantity of things that we think we can accomplish.

[00:32:06] Jess: I feel like we need to bring you back for another episode, just to talk about that and share what you've gleaned about those things.

[00:32:13] Steve: Thank you, Steve, for joining us. Appreciate it. You're welcome. It's wonderful. Thank you for the privilege. Bless you both.

[00:32:20] Jess: Hopefully after our conversation with Steve, you're really excited to get his new book published, Not on board, but in case you're itching to get just like a little bit more information, we actually have a story straight from the book that Steve tells about a little bit of an adventure that he had in Cape Town, Africa. So check out our bonus stories to hear that story.

[00:32:39] Matt: Yeah, go to our show notes where you'll find links to the book and where you can purchase it.

[00:32:45] Also, you can read it for free at pioneers. org slash books. But if you go in our show notes, there'll be links to the bonus story as well as links to the books. Also want to mention another one that he referenced, which is the book. Peace Child, which is a book that his father wrote about their experience among the Sawi .

[00:33:02] And we'll have links to where you can get that book as well. And also Steve's first book, which was released about two years ago, and that's Is the Commission Still Great? Eight Myths About Missions and What They Mean for the Church. You can find all that information in our show notes. Be sure to check it out, and we look forward to hearing from you.

[00:33:19] Jess: Thanks for following us on this episode of the Relentless Pursuit podcast. Our goal is to make missions accessible to show that it's not just reserved for elite super Christians. If you want to be involved, just go to pioneers. org slash start and answer a few questions. We have a team who would love to help you discern your calling and what your next steps might be.

[00:33:40] Matt: At Pioneers, we love to partner with local churches and send teams to people groups with little or no access to the gospel. Keep up with what God is doing by following us on Instagram, Facebook, X, and YouTube, all at PioneersUSA, one word, or visit pioneers. org. Thanks for listening.

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